Sp. Col. Index   |   Mormon Classics   |   Bookshelf   |   Newspaper Articles   |   History Vault

Clark Braden (1831- c.1915)
Braden-Kelley Debate
(1st edition: Cincinnatti, 1884)

Part 7 of 7 pages 302-381

  • Title Page   Preface

  • Proposition 1:
  • pp. 003-035   pp. 078-112
    pp. 113-174   pp. 175-219

  • Proposition 2:   pp. 220-301
  • Proposition 3:   pp. 302-381

  • Appendices:   pp. 382-396

  • Elder E. L. Kelley

    The original text contains no proper contents page.   --   Tabulated Links (in lieu of a Contents Page)
    Prop. Three Speeches:  1K  1B  2K  2B  3K  3B  4K  4B  5K  5B  6K  6B  7K  7B  8K  8B

    This book will not be fully transcribed until mid-2007.
    go back to: page 301

    302                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- It is with considerable pleasure that I again appear before you, to investigate a question touching directly upon the faith in the gospel of Christ as I believe it. The people generally are as ignorant of the actual faith and principles of the church I represent as the ancient Scribes and Pharisees were of the faith and doctrine Jesus and Paul preached. For this reason, if there were no others, I am glad to-night, being assured in my heart that when I shall be rightly understood by you, and the people whom I represent shall have been truly known by you, that we shall find in your hearts a warmer feeling than is possible to exist in the absence of such knowledge.

    I delight also to engage in a friendly investigation of the facts underlying my faith in the Redeemer, because I have so carefully considered and criticized it, that I know that there is nothing contained therein, but that will appeal to man's intelligence, and is entitled to a place in the highest impulses, and worthy to be honored with the noblest sentiments of the human heart.

    The question, the discussion of which we enter upon this evening, reads:

    "Is the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the Church of God in fact, and accepted with him?"

    I am well aware that to begin with, my friends, I have the unpopular side of this issue; and that even men and women of much intelligence, look upon a person who accepts the faith of the Saintsm as being not only visionary, but actually fanatical...

    page 302 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     303

    page 303 still under construction

    I shall, therefore, now set forth the fundamental principles of our faith, together with some of the scripture citations, which we claim to reflect and enjoib these principles, as follows:


    1. We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19, 1 John 1:3, St. John 11:26.
    2. That men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Ecc. 12:14, Matt. 16:27, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev. 20:12-15.
    3. That through the atonement of Christ, all men may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. 1 Cor. 15:3, 2 Tim. 1:10, Rom. 8:1-6.
    4. That these ordinances are: --
    (1st) Faith in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ. Heb. 11:6, Pet. 1:21, 1 Tim. 4:10, John 3:16, 18, 36, Mark 11:22, John 14:1.
    (2d). Repentance. Matt. 3:2, 8, 11. Luke 13:3, 24:47, Ezek. 18:30, Mark 1:5, 15, Acts 2:38, Rom. 2:4, 2 Cor. 7:10.
    (3) Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. Matt. 3:13-15, Mark 1:4, 5, Luke 3:3, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 22:16, 2:41, 8:12, 27, 38, Mark 16:16, Col. 2:12, Rom. 6:4, 5, John 3:28, Acts 8:38, 39.
    (4th) Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Deut. 34:9, John 20:21, 22, Acts 8:17, 19:6, 1 Tim. 4:14, Acts 9:17, 1 Cor. 12:3, Acts 19:1-6.
    5. We believe in the Resurrection of the Body; that the dead in Christ will rise first, and the rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years are expired. Job 19:25, 26, Dan 12:2, 1 Cor. 15:42. 1 Thess. 4:16, Rev. 20:6, Acts 17:31, Phil. 3:21, John 11:24, Isa. 26:19, Ps. 17:15.
    6. In the doctrine of Eternal Judgment, which provides that men shall be judged, rewarded, or punished,
    according to the degree of good or evil, they shall have done. Rev. 20:12. Ecc. 3:17, Matt. 16:27, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Pet. 2:4, 13, 17.
    7. That a man must be Called of God, and ordained by the Laying on of Hands of those who are in authority, to entitle him to preach the Gospel and Administer in the Ordinances thereof. Heb. 5:1, 5, 6, 8, Acts 1:24, 25, 14:23, Eph. 4:11, John 15:16.
    8. That the church should have the same kind of organization that existed in the primitive church, viz.: Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, &c. 1 Cor. 12:28, Matt. 10:1, Acts 6:4, Eph. 4:11, 2:20, Titus 1:5.
    9. That in the Bible is contained the word of God so far as it is translated correctly, and further that the canon of scripture is not full, but that God, by his Spirit, will continue to reveal His word to man, until the end of time. Job 32:8, Heb. 13:8, Prov. 29:18. Amos 3:7, Jer. 23:4, 31:31, 34, 33:6, Ps. 85:10, 11, Luke 17:26. Rev. 14:6, 7, 19:10.
    10. That the believers in Christ are entitled to the powers and gifts of the everlasting gospel, viz.: the gift of faith, discerning of spirits, prophecy, revelation, healing, visions, tongues, and the interpretation of tongues, wisdom, charity, brotherly love, &c. 1 Cor. 12:1-11, 14:26, John 14:24, Acts 2:3, Matt. 28:19, 20, Mark 16:16.
    11. That marriage is ordained of God; and that the law of God provides for but one companion in wedlock, for either man or woman, except in cases where the contract of marriage is broken by death or transgression. Gen. 2:18, 21-24, 7:1, 7, 13, Prov. 5:15-21, Mal. 2:14, 15, Matt. 19:4-6, 1 Cor. 7:2, Heb. 13:4.
    12. That the doctrines of a plurality and a community of wives are heresies, and are opposed to the law of God. Gen. 4:19, 23, 24, 7:9, 22:2, in connection Gal. 4th and 5th c. Gen. 21:8-10, Mal. 2:14, 15, Matt 19:3-9.
    13. That in all matters of controversy upon the duty of man toward God, and in reference to preparation and fitness for the world to come, the word of God should be decisive, and the end of dispute; and that when God directs, man should obey.
    14. That the religion of Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament Scriptures, will, if its precepts are accepted and obeyed, make men and women better in the domestic circle, and better citizens of town, county and state, and consequently better fitted for the change which cometh at death.
    15. That men should worship God in "Spirit and in truth;" and that such worship does not require a violation of the consitutional law of the land. John 4:21-24.
    16. We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience, allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.

    Other than these we esteem as a sacred injunction the observance of the Lor's Supper, or Eucharist; and under proper circumstances and place, the washing of feet. But I will not catalogue further at this time...

    page 303 still under construction

    304                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 304 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     305

    page 305 still under construction .

    306                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 306 still under construction .


                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     307


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- It is freely conceded that Mormonism contains much that is good...

    page 307 still under construction

    308                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 308 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     309

    page 309 still under construction .

    310                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 310 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     311

    page 311 still under construction .


    312                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Before taking up the line of affirmative proofs, I shall notice a few of the assertions indulged in by the negative....

    page 312 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     313

    page 313 still under construction

    Over at Wilber, Nebraska, I took occasion to tell him that Joseph Smith never held the absurd views of God attributed to him by the Utah people. Nor did he. We do not accept the statements in the works published after his death, of what some one said he said, to find what he believed; but go directly to what what he said himself. The trouble with the sermon called the King Follet sermon is, in the fact, that it is not published as delivered. It was not published in his lifetime, was partially written up after its delivery by others, and the full sermon never published anywhere, at any
    time, and shall you say we shall accept this as his views with reference to God when it contradicts that which we know he wrote himself, and when many who heard the discourse attributed to him tell us it reads entirely different to what it was as delivered. The trouble is in that publication that it does not contain what he said. But if it did and was then contrary to what is in the inspired works of the church, we would be bound to reject it and hold to the idea of God as reflected in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the Revelations to the church which are in harmony necessarily with these books. Is this the best Braden can do for an objection?

    The religion of Joseph Smith was, and is, as I set it forth in my opening speech upon this question. This was set forth by an endorsement under his own hand in 1844, to Hon. John Wentworth, then editor of the Chicago Democrat; and on the 5th of June, 1844, only 22 days prior to his death, in a letter to an English publisher...

    page 313 still under construction

    314                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 314 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     315

    page 315 still under construction .

    316                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 316 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     317

    page 317 still under construction .


    318                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Mormons are committed by organic action to receive as revelations --....

    page 318 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     319

    page 319 still under construction .

    320                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 320 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     321

    page 321 still under construction .

    322                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 322 still under construction .


                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     323


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- When my time was called last evening, I was entering upon the narrative of young Mr. Smith, with reference to the manner of the Commitment of the Gospel, and the beginning of the work that culminated in the organization of the church in this century. I shall this evening first finish this narrative and then proceed with the argument: Pearl of Great Price, pp. 37 to 44.

    "I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother Lucy, my brothers Hyrum, Samuel Harrison, and my sister Sophronia.

    "During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often pungent, still I kept myself aloof from all those parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit: but in process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them, but so great was the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person, young as I was and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right, and who was wrong. My mind at different times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult was so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists, and Methodists, and used all their powers of reason or sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand the Baptists and Methodists in their turn, were equally zealous to establish their own tenets, and disprove all others.

    "In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself, what is to be done? Who of all these parties are right? or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

    "While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties, caused by the contest of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads, 'If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth unto all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.' Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man, than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to ask of God, concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture. So, in accordance with this my determination, to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

    "After I had retired into the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time, as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy, which had seized upon me, and
    at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction, not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such a marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being. Just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun; which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, (pointing to the other,) 'THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, HEAR HIM.'

    "My object in going to enquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner therefore did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong), and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said, 'That all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt, they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'

    "He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

    "Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement, and conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior, he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there was no such thing as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there never would be any more of them.

    "I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase, and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a hot persecution, and this was common among all the sects, all united to persecute me.

    "It has often caused me serious reflection, both then and since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, so as to create in them a spirit of the hottest persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and was often cause of great sorrow to myself. However, it was, nevertheless a fact that I had had a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul when he made his defense before king Agrippa and related the account of the vision he had when he 'saw a light and heard a voice,' but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad, and he was ridiculed and reviled; but all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision: he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew and would know unto his latest breath, that he had both seen a light, and heard a voice speaking to him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.

    "So it was with me, I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personages, and they did in reality speak unto me, or one of them did; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all

    324                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart, why persecute for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision, and 'who am I that I can withstand God,' or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? for I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dare I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God and come under condemnation...

    "During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision, and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three, (having been forbidden to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends, and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored, in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me,) I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, to the gratification of many appetites offensive in the sight of God. In consequence of these things I often felt condemned for my weakness and imperfections; when on the evening of the above mentioned twenty-first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God, for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I had previously had one."

    "While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in the room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor. He had on a loose robe of the most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I have ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so also were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

    "Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately round his person. When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God had a work for me to do, and that my name should be had for good and evil, among all nations, kindreds, and tongues; or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people. He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fullness of the everlasting gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants. Also that there were two stones in silver bows (and these stones fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim) deposited with the plates, and the possession and use of these stones was what constituted Seers in ancient or former times, and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

    "After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament, he first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi, and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books he quoted it thus: 'For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall burn as stubble, for they that come shall burn them saith the Lord. of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.' And again he quoted the fifth verse thus, 'Behold I will reveal unto you the Priesthood by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.' He also quoted the next verse differently: 'And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at His coming."

    "In addition to these he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah. saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second
    and twenty-third verses precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that the prophet was Christ, but the day had not yet come when 'they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,' but soon would come.

    "He also quoted the second chapter of Joel from the twenty-eighth to the last verse. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled but was soon to be. And he further stated the fullness of the Gentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of scripture and offered many explanations, which cannot be mentioned here. Again, he told me that when I got those plates of which he had spoken (for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled) I should not show them to any person, neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim, only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed. While he was conversing with me about the plates, the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place again when I visited it.

    "After this communication I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark except just around him, when instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended up till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

    I lay musing on the singularity of the scene, and marvelling greatly at what had been told me by this extraordinary messenger, when in the midst of my meditation, I suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was again by my bedside. He commenced and again related the very same things which he had done at his first visit, without the least variation, which having done, he informed me of great judgments which were coming upon the earth, with great desolations by famine, sword and pestilence, and that these grievous judgments would come on the earth in this generation. Having related these things he again ascended as he had done before.

    "By this time so deep, were the impressions made on my mind that sleep had fled from my eyes, and I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I had both seen and heard; but what was my surprise when again I beheld the same messenger at my bedside, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me the same things as before and added a caution to me, telling me that Satan would try to tempt me (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my father’s family) to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. This he forbide me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive but that of building his kingdom, otherwise I could not get them...

    "Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates deposited in a stone box: this stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth. Having removed the earth and obtained a lever which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up; I looked in and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement, In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them...

    "As my father's worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring by day's work and otherwise as we could get opportunity; sometimes we were at home and sometimes abroad and by continued labor were enabled to get a comfortable maintenance.

    "In the year 1824 my father's family met with a great affliction, by the death of my eldest brother Alvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman, by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, state of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania, and had, previous to my hiring with him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him he took me among the rest of his hands to dig for the silver mine,

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     325

    at which I continued to work for nearly a month without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money digger.

    "During the time that I was thus employed, I was put to board with a Mr. Isaac Hale of that place; it was there that I first saw my wife (his daughter) Emma Hale. On the 28th of January, 1827 we were married, while yet I was employed in the service of Mr. Stoal...

    "At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the 22nd day of September, 1827, having gone, as usual, at the end of another year, to the place where they were deposited: the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge, that I should be responsible for them: that if I should let them go carelessly or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected."

    I have thus been particular in reading to you this narrative, because it is so entirely unlike the various manufactured stories told about the visions, work, character, habits and integrity of this boy, that I wished them placed side by side before you...

    page 325 still under construction

    326                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 326 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     327

    page 327 still under construction .


    328                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- My opponent tried to dodge the quotation from the Book of Mormon....

    page 328 still under construction
    page 328 still under construction

    He read Joe Smith's yarn about his first vision. That story was first told by Smith in 1843, when he was 38 years old, and 23 years after he says he had the vision. His mother and his father's family knew nothing about it then. His mother in writing his life quotes this very story, as he wrote it 23 years afterwards. It is all a fabrication. No ignorant boy of fifteen, scarcely able to read, had such knowledge of all the profound theological questions of the day. He did not reason like a theologian of forty. Joe fabricated that yarn after sixteen years acquaintence with Rigdon. He got the Campbellism of his pretended vision from Rigdon. It is a lying fabrication. His vision is a lie, for he says he saw the Father in person. No mortal ever saw him. Human ears have heard him but three times. His longquotations have as much relevance as quoting the multiplication table. He supposes that persons are silly enough to think,

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     329

    page 329 still under construction .

    330                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 330 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     331

    page 331 still under construction .


    332                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- The Book of Abraham has become a terror to my opponent all at once.....

    page 332 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     333

    page 333 still under construction .

    334                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 334 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     335

    page 335 still under construction .

    336                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 336 still under construction page 336 still under construction

    He says that Oliver Cowdery was living in concubinage here in Kirtland. This is another of his false assertions, neither can

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     337

    he maintain it by any reliable testimony. It is akin to the false and slanderous assertions made against the character of Martin Harris which the citizens of Kirtland know to be false and slanderous. Even Tucker who wrote against the Latter Day Saints confessed to Harris' honesty. Tucker's History, page 61, he says: "Harris was proverbially a peaceful and honest man." "Honesty had always been conceded to him;" ibid. page 71. Tucker was personally acquainted with Harris and wrote his book while residing in Harris' old neighborhood; and although he wrote wickedly against the Saints, he universally accords to Harris' honesty.

    (Time called).



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- We reject the prophets who are the foundation of Mormonism, for their false prophecies (Nephi I.) that Laban's brass plates shall go forth to all nations of his (Lehi's) seed. This prophecy is an utter failure. God said through Joe (Doctrines and Covenants, page 69), that he will show the plates to three and to none else. Eight others say they saw them; Whitmer's mother says she saw them; Emma Smith says she saw and handled them...

    page 337 still under construction

    338                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 338 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     339

    page 339 still under construction .

    340                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 340 still under construction .


                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     341


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- As my opponent has left the field entirely, so far as undertaking to make and stand by an argument, and devotes his time wholly to hunting up supposed objections to some things in some of our published works, and rehearsing these, together with the stories told, I shall take the time to examine these as I proposed...

    page 341 still under construction

    342                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 342 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     343

    page 343 still under construction

    Page 507 of the Book of Mormon referred to last night, I also answered on a previous evening denfinitely. The things the brother of Jared saw were not to be revealed until after the Gentiles should repent, after Moroni hid them up. They have not as yet been translated. They were translated by the Nephites, however after the crucifixion, and that translation, as engraved by the Nephites, was hid up with the Book of Mormon by Moroni.

    The plates of brass spoken of by Lehi, page 11, did go forth among his posterity; are now in existence, as has been testified of, and in due time will be manifest again to his posterity. They were removed from there for a season. because they sought to destroy them. It was what was on the plates that was the main thing that was to go forth. The plates themselves are now in the care of one of Lehi's descendants, the angel Moroni.

    I now come to the mystery of mysteries,
    that has never been matched by anything, save it were hazel-witching.

    My opponent read last evening from Mrs. Eaton's graphic pen, the old story about Joseph Smith, Sen., digging a well once upon a time, and from the bottom thereof, he exhumed a baby's foot. Joe was on hand as usual, and snatched it from his Father, and ran off peeping for money. Whether his father ever chastened him for this impiety is not stated. But my opponent was particular to elaborate upon another yarn, wherein it was claimed that the said Joe stole this baby's foot from one of the Chase's children, and went off hazel-witching and seeking for money. So says Mr. Chase, per my opponent. But we are informed also by him that Miss Chase had a baby's foot too, and could see equally well with Joe, and often pointed out where money was, and could really find lost property. She was a Seeress when she died just a few years ago. Thus we have been shown that this wonderful baby had at least three feet, and either, when looked upon, would reveal hidden mysteries. What Joe would have seen and revealed had he succeeded in stealing that entire baby, no mortal will likely ever know. Anyway, Joe got the baby's foot from his father, and stole it from the Chase family, and yet Miss Chase was in possession of the baby's foot, and was divining on all occasions when called upon, till just a few years ago. This nonsense and tomfoolery Mr. Braden drinks all in, and then licks out his tongue for more like it. Hence he goes on, and notwithstanding he has labored long and hard to make out Sidney Rigdon the real author of the Book of Mormon, and to prove that he used "Ignorant Joe" as a cat's paw, when he strode along on Ahasueras' horse, yes last night he had the consumate audacity to charge the whole fraud of prophet-making on poor old Mother Smith, while they yet lived in Vermont. Was the old lady Smith and Sidney Rigdon in cahoot while she lived in Vermont in the prophet-making business? She to raise the prophet, he to write the book...

    page 343 still under construction

    344                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 344 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     345

    page 345 still under construction .


    346                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    redemption from our sins on account of ignorance, but we must walk in the light. Yet every objection brought against the divine work of the boy of Manchester, has been from the standpoint that he claimed to be informed upon the question of religion. And if he was a teacher sent from God and knew whereof he affirmed, he could not have been otherwise, than in the light.

    (Time called.)


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Mr. Kelley has denied that there ever was such a man as Thomas P. Baldwin. That there ever was such an officer as Judge of Wayne County Court; that Thomas P. Baldwin was Judge of Wayne County Court in 1833. We read the affidavit of S. B. McIntyre, a lawyer of over thirty years practice in Palmyra, and a resident of Palmyra for fifty-six years, stating -- I. There was such a man, a lawyer in Palmyra...

    page 346 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     347

    page 347 still under construction .

    348                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 348 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     349

    page 349 still under construction .


    350                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    Booth says, "Smith's reputation was bad." Orrin Read, "I knew the Smith's, but did not associate with them; they were too low to associate with. There was no truth in them." Samantha Payne testifies:

    "She was a schoolmate of Smith. His reputation was bad; he was regarded as a worthless, shiftless fellow, a braggadocio and a blackguard. The mother of Joseph Smith was regarded as a thief by her neighbors. She was exceedingly superstitious and addicted to lying, as were all of the family. She once came to my mother to get a stone the children had found, of curious shape. She wanted to use it as a peepstone. Mother would not trust her to look around the house for it. The Smith's dug for money on nearly every farm for miles around; their excavations can be seen to-day. Some are on the farm on which I now live. The digging was done at night with most absurd superstitious acts. It was done by a gang of men and women of low reputation. They told many absurd stories about it. After Smith came back from Pennsylvania
    his followers dug a cave in a hillside not far from here. They conducted the work of getting up Mormonism in it. I was in it once. It can be seen to-day. The present owner of the farm, Mr. Miner, dug out the cave, which had fallen in. The cave had a large, heavy plate door and a padlock on it. The neighbors broke it open one night, and found in it a barrel of flour, some mutton, some sheep pelts, and two sides of leather,"

    Erza Pierce testifies to the digging for money, their lying and laziness, and the low gang that were engaged in it. Dr. McIntyre, who was their physician, testifies that Joseph Smith, senior, was a drunkard, a liar and a thief, and his house a perfect brothel. That Joe got drunk, stole sugar, got beaten for it, and told the doctor who dressed his bruises he had a fight with the devil. Yea, verily he had!


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- The consumation of the offense of Joseph Smith in the minds of his opposers was, and is, that he was an unlearned boy...

    page 350 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     351

    page 351 still under construction .

    352                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 352 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     353

    page 353 still under construction .

    354                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 354 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     355

    page 355 still under construction .


    356                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Mormons try to deny that Smith began his course as seer by witching for water with a witch hazel rod, and peeping for stolen and lost articles and buried treasures. Mrs. Smith in her life of Joe, admits that he did such work. The editor, apostle Blair, admits that he did. Scores of associates testify to the fact. They try to deny that he dug for money, and superintended a gang of knaves and dupes in such work. His mother admits that he did. So does apostle Blair, the editor. Scores testify to his spending years in such work. That great excavations were made all over the neighborhood and for miles around, extending from Palmyra N.Y. to Harmony, Pa., and Hartwicke, N.Y. Many of these excavations can be seen to-day. When the gang came to Kirtland they renewed the work of digging for treasure and living witnesses can be cited who can point out where they dug in Kirtland. Mormonism began in peeping with a stolen peep-stone, and witching for water with a witch hazel rod and digging for years for buried money. It began in superstition, lying and fraud attended with thieving, drunkenness and lewdness. The witching for water was a lying fraud; so was finding the plates and translating. Peeping for lost property and buried treasure with the stolen peep-stone was a fraud. So was the pretense of finding plates and translating them, Digging for buried treasures, seen with the stolen peep-stone, was a lying fraud. So was the tale of digging up plates and translating them with a stolen peep-stone. We, on a former occasion, exposed Joe's lies and contradictory stories about his plates, and the lies and contradictory stories of all connected with the fraud. We could read Joe's own statement of his casting the devil our of Newell Knight in New York. Mrs. Smith's yarns of visions, miracles, etc., that attended their first meetings and their removal to Ohio. One of Joe's unmarried sisters proving to be enciente it was declared to be an immaculate conception, and a new Messiah would be given to the world. Old citizens of Palmyra and Manchester testify to hearing such stuff from Martin Harris, David Whitmer and other Mormons. The whole affair was a strange compound of ignorance, superstition, lying, fraud, trickery, and low cunning, managed by Joe, who was an infidel, and was imitating his favorite characters, the clerical impostor Stephen Burroughs, and Mohammed. It would require volumes to record the absurdities, the tricks and lies of all connected with the fraud. The low absurd character of the pretended supernatural events connected with the origin of Mormonism, shows its low vile origin, and the low, ignorant character of its originators. The most low and absurd superstitions of Southern negroes were eclipsed.

    The real originator of Mormonism was Sidney Rigdon, who only intended to use Smith as his tool, to get the fraud before the world, as a miracle and revelation, through his stolen peep-stone. But Smith proved to be a deeper schemer than even Rigdon. When Rigdon allowed Joe to go before the world first, to usher in, and conduct the movement for months, as his prophet, and came in only as a convert, he gave away his chances to be leader. He often tried in Kirtland, in Missouri, in Nauvoo, to get the coveted place of leader and make Smith subordinate, but he had put the citadel in Smith's hands and entered only as a recruit, and Smith was too cunning for him to succeed in ousting him. Smith always held Rigdon in the position he assumed when he embraced Mormonism openly, that of a mere convert, and never allowed him to assume his real position, the author of the whole fraud and the one who intended to be leader, and only intended to allow Smith to act as author and leader for a short time, in order to start the fraud. Rigdon intended to use Smith as a cat's paw to rake the roasted chestnuts off of the stove of public censure and criticism; but the cat proved to be a shrewder imp than even the one trying to use him. He kept the chestnuts and threw to the originator of the scheme, only the shells. Rigdon's whole career in Mormonism was an apish chattering and quarreling to regain what he had given away.

    Since the discussion began I have come in possession of the following facts: James Jeffery of Churchville, Hartford Co., Maryland, in a statement dictated to Rev. Calvin D. Wilson, in the presence of his wife, declares:

    Forty years ago I was in business in St. Louis. The Mormons then had their temple in Nauvoo, Ill. I had business transactions with them. I knew Sidney Rigdon. He acted as general manager of the business of the Mormons (with me). Rigdon told me several tines in his conversations with me, that there was in the printing office with which he was connected in Ohio, a manuscript of the Rev. Solomon Spaulding's, tracing the origin of the Indian race from the lost tribes of Israel. This manuscript was in the office several years. He was familiar with it. Spaulding wanted it published, but had not the means to pay for the printing. He (Rigdon) and Joe Smith used to look over the manuscript and read it on Sundays: Rigdon Said Smith took the manuscript and said "I'll print it," and he went off to Palmyra, N.Y.

    On the 14th of September, 1844, Sidney Rigdon, who was trying to assume Joe

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     357

    Smith's place as President and Prophet, was called by a committee of the Twelve Apostles. In the conversation with them he told them that they dare not reject him. If they did, he would reveal their secrets. On the 15th and 16th Brigham Young and others denounced him for such threats. They rejected him and expelled him September 16th.

    In an article in the "Times and Seasons" of May 1st, 1845, reprinted from the Kalamazoo Gazette, and signed E. M. Webb, Rigdon is bitterly denounced for his exposures of Mormonism.

    In a conversation with Dr. Silas Sheppard, some time after his return to Pennsylvania from Nauvoo, in response to Dr. Sheppard's request that he would now, since he had, as he declared to Dr. Sheppard, renounced all connection with Mormonism forever, tell him, Dr. Sheppard, the truth, in regard to the Book of Mormon; Rigdon replied, "Dr. Sheppard, my mouth is forever sealed on that subject."

    Rigdon lived for long years after this, in ease. His family flourished in business. He wrote much, would talk on all subjects but Mormonism, and died, and as far as the world knows, "gave no sign." Observing neighbors think that he was a pensioner of Mormonism, and that his family have profited largely by selling his papers to the Mormons, or in bribes to keep them a secret.

    Now let us collate the facts,  I. Rigdon becomes intimate with Mr. Jeffery, while acting for the Mormons in business transactions.  II. Rigdon threatens the Mormons in the Fall of 1844, that he would divulge their secrets, if they reject him in his attempt to be President.  III. They reject him.  IV. On his way back East, and while in St. Louis, he fulfills his threats, and tells Mr. Jeffery that Spaulding's manuscript was taken to a printing office. That he got it from the office. That he and Smith examined it together. That he gave it to Smith to publish.  V. About the same time Mormon papers are denouncing him bitterly for his exposures.  VI A change comes over the spirit of his dream. He announces that he has renounced Mormonism forever, but that his mouth is forever sealed in regard to matters that he had been freely making public.

    The key to the matter is, Rigdon had failed to get a party to follow him. He could make nothing out of Mormonism. He began to tell their secrets as he declared [he] would. Mormon agents visited him. They could not let him talk any more. They offered him two alternatives. Money and silence, or Danite vengeance. Rigdon had sent the Danites on their murderous errands too often not to know what they meant. He took the bribe, and his mouth was forever sealed. He lived in ease, with with no visible means of support. His family have been successful, with no tangible means of success. Rigdon lived on Mormon money, paid to keep him silent. His family have made a good thing out of it, in accepting
    hush money. Rigdon lived for years, an outspoken atheist and infidel, and died one. Like most Mormons who are not dupes, but knaves, he turned infidel, when the fraud was no longer profitable.

    Sidney Rigdon was like Joe Smith, a lazy youth noted for his extravagant language, stories and exaggeration and falsehoods. He used to talk skepticism and was noted for his fondness for debate. After he stole the Spaulding manuscript he joined the Baptist church. He told a marvelous experience and afterwards told the Baptist Association when they were trying him that it was all a lie. He manufactured it to get into the church. He began preaching as soon as he joined the church and soon began to plot to oust the old pastor of the church and get his place and came very near ruining the church. Failing in this and having lost the confidence of the Baptists in Pennsylvania, he went to Ohio and joined the church in Warren. After preaching here for two years he returned to Pittsburg. He remained here nearly two years. He was expelled from the Baptist church and preached a short time to his malcontents in the court house. He resumed working at his trade, a tanner, and began to fix up the manuscript he had stolen from the printing office. During this time he resumed his infidelity and talked it openly and freely, as old citizens of Pittsburg and Pennsylvania testify. On a visit to a relative near where the author's father had charge of a stone yard, he used to spend hours in sitting near the author's father and talking his doubts and skepticism,

    In 1826, while he was living in Bainbridge Ohio, be was invited to preach the funeral sermon of Warner Goodall in Mentor by the Baptist church who knew him as brother-in-law of Adamison Bentley, a well known Baptist preacher, and that he had been a Baptist preacher. He did so and was invited to preach for the church. He laid to one side his skepticism and preached for them and went with the church into the Disciple movement. As Baptist and Disciple preacher he was noted for his spread-eagle eloquence and ability to get up revival excitements. He had been hurt in youth and it left him with a tendency to epileptic spells. He would often, while preaching, especially in revival excitements, have such spells and see visions and swoon, have trances, etc. This tendency caused his preaching to be wild, visionary and extravagant. He was regarded as a cunning, ambitious schemer, noted for his extravagant talk and actions, his exaggerations and untruth, and as destitute of truthfulness and moral principle. His preaching attracted the visionary and fanatical. He carefully indoctrinated them with his ideas while Smith was getting out his book. He made a confident of P. P. Pratt who let his brother Orson into the secret, and these four, Smith, Rigdon and the Pratts, constituted the brains of Mormonism in the start. Two were known to be infidels before they went into Mormonism, the two originators

    358                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 358 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     359

    page 359 still under construction page 359 still under construction

    Mormonism began with a back-slidden infidel preacher, Solomon Spaulding. It was taken up, by another back-slidden infidel preacher, Sidney Rigdon. It was given to the world by an admirer of Payne, an infidel, Joe Smith. Its leaders have largely [been] infidels, who used the fraud to dupe the silly for gain. When they abandon it, they go out into infidelity. Rigdon lived a confirmed infidel after he abandoned it, and died an atheist. It is meet that it

    360                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    should be defended in Kirtland by a rehash of infidel attacks on the Bible, when its fraudulent, anti-scriptural character is exposed. We have had bitter infidel attacks on the origin of the Books of the Bible, on the accuracy of its text, on the character of inspired men, on its statements and teachings. This has been applauded by the infidels in the audience. They know their man, they know the work he is doing, he is doing their work. Mormonism and infidelity, like Herod and Pilate, make friends to crucify the religion of Christ. My opponent challenged me to debate what he failed to meet in this debate. Will he, as an honest infidel, affirm his attacks on the Bible in debate. I will meet him then under his true colors. It would be out of order to reply to his infidelity, introduced out of order in a debate, in which the Bible is the standard.  


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- The audience can readily see the absurdity of my opponent's position in claiming that the Priesthood was not given to the Christian ministry, and that there never were but two High Priests of the order of Melchizedek...

    page 360 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     361

    page 361 still under construction .

    362                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 362 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     363

    page 363 still under construction .

    364                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    Jackaways; the Jackaways said, "Yes, they dug for money. The large holes are over there in the hill now." But, we asked, who dug? "They;' they did not know who "they" were, but the holes were over there in the hill. What hill? we asked, the hill Mr. Smith lived on? No, not where Mr. Smith lived. How do you know the holes were made while digging for money? They did not know that, but they did know that there were some holes over there that looked as though they had been made by some body digging, but the holes may have been from some other cause. But Chase did say his sister, Sally, had a stone through which she claimed to see things, and he thought that she could. Here is the truth of the matter: it was the opponents of Smith who claimed to see through the stone and not Smith. This is the "black crow story" duplicated. In this instance we found there was a man by the name of Smith once lived there. That was all. Mr. Smith had the Urim and Thummim and never at any time pretended to use, or that he could use or see things, or divine or locate money, or property or anything else through the stone baby's foot of Sally Chase or anybody else. These are all the scandalous lies and inventions of people.

    Take the jumbled mess called affidavits in Howe's book, the work which I have proved beyond question to be composed of false, garbled, perverted passages and statements from our works, deliberately made to deceive by some one, and what have we? A thing from the very manner in which it is written; the contradictions, and the fact that the originals were burned as soon as these pretended copies were put in Howe's book, that will prevent any man accepting them who is honestly criticising the work of Mr. Smith. Braden only read a small portion of these pretended affidavits. The whole would have floored him without a notice or criticism from me. Peter Ingersoll is made to say entirely too much; he was acquainted with all the hog paths and sheep tracks on the Smith farm; the cows could not be milked without Ingersoll's knowledge; and he finds out that they are hiding their cows in the woods to deceive, and knew about other peoples' cows that were hidden; yet in the same affidavit he says, "I told him (Joseph) I would let him have the money." and he presented Mr. Hale for security. Mr. Hale presented for security, yet he was far away in Pennsylvania and Peter Ingersoll had never saw or heard of him to this time, except through Joseph Smith. But Smith would not take his money, and then Ingersoll is made to say: Smith told him, "I went to Palmyra and met that damned fool Martin Harris, and told him that I had a command to ask the first honest man I met for fifty dollars in money, and he gave it to me.

    Then he is made to say: That he saw William after they visited Waterloo and William said, "we do letter there than here; we were too well known to do much
    here." Then take the tale of the frock of sand, the Canada Bible story, raising chests of money to the top of the ground, the old man's water-witching and contortions while Alvin his son witched, notwithstanding Alvin had been dead then at least two years, all in this pretended affidavit. Is there a man under the Sun foolish enough to believe it?

    Take Wm. Stafford's pretended statement with regard to the "black sheep story," it is even worse than that of Peter Ingersoll, if possible. His own son Dr. Thomas Stafford says: "I have heard that story, but it is not true. I was living at home at that time. They never stole a black sheep from my father I am sure." Mr. Orlando Saunders who proved to be the best acquainted with the Smith family of any party living anywhere near Manchester or Palmyra, New York, being their near neighbor, says they were honest, industrious and upright, and the only thing that could be said truthfully against them was that they were very poor and worked for a living. And the Presbyterian minister who went around for affidavits did not get a different story from him either.

    This Gilbert tried to get his brother, Lorenzo Saunders, who was only 9 years of age in 1830, to swear that he saw Sidney Rigdon at Smith's in 1827, and he refused to make the statement; and yet, Braden has reported it in this discussion as though it was true and that he had his affidavit to this effect. I have noticed invariably one thing during this discussion and that is that a story never loses in size after it reaches Braden's hands, and although it is but a mere rumor, he tells it with all the avidity and positiveness that belongs to the statement of facts.

    Then there is the long pretended statement of Willard Chase which condemns itself if he would read it all, and so of Parley Chase, David Stafford, Henry Harris, Abigail and Lucy Harris, Joshua Stafford. This Stafford family were whales to testify, they, like Howe, were mad because some of their relations were Latter Day Saints, and they wanted to do something lest the people might think they were leaning that way. That would be such a disgrace, you know. Then there is Nichols, Capron, Stoddard, Ford, Th. P. Baldwin, yes, their disinterested judge, mixed in with these slanderers of Mr. Smith's family; when the same man just before the removal of the family from New York went and persuaded the old lady Smith to come to his house and take care of and nurse his wife through a long sickness. Then to cap the climax Braden introduces his 51 witnesses, this Baldwin being one, and makes them all say: "Martin Harris was a man who had a handsome property and in matters of business his word was considered good." Yet he has continually assaulted this same man's character throughout this controversy. They did not like Harris' religion, and that was all that could be said against him, but as all of the

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     365

    others of these wicked, false, corrupt and slanderous statements they are made to say" "they were considered." so and so.

    The following is the statement set out by Braden's 51 witnesses"

    And in reference to all with whom we were acquainted; that have embraced Mormonism from this neighborhood; we are compelled to say that they were very visionary, and most of them destitute of moral character, and without influence in this community; and this may account why they were permitted to go on with their impositions undisturbed."

    Did you ever hear such wise conclusions? Because they were destitute of moral character and influence they were permitted to go on undisturbed; but if they had had a good moral character and a good influence that neighborhood would have disturbed them. Well, think myself they would have been, if these 51 men ever signed that statement. This is on the same ground that the Campbellites over about Hiram put their claim for disturbing Smith and Rigdon with tar and feathers, I suppose.

    Their own history states Rigdon had a good moral influence. Next I turn to his new witness, Jeffries, who got acquainted with Rigdon in 1844, when Rigdon did business for the Mormons in Nauvoo, so he says; but Rigdon did not do the business for them neither in 1844, 1843 or any other time when they were in Nauvoo. He was in poor health when at Nauvoo and did but little of anything then, except act as Postmaster, and in 1844 he lived in Pittsburg, and was in charge of the church in Pittsburg in the year 1844. He never told Jeffries such thing at any time, and never at any time in his life claimed or pretended to claim he ever knew anything about Joseph Smith until after October, 1830. I have read to you his own published letters over his own signature; not what his enemies said about him, and he lived and died firm in the faith, claiming that he was the proper head of the church after the death of the other two Presidents, as he was the second counselor to the President.

    Braden can not, as he states, bring old citizens of Kirtland who will testify to his stuff. I have challenged him from the first to do so, and he has not put a single one on the stand. He called in one of his own men, a Campbellite preacher, Mr. Moss, who lives far away from Kirtland, and that did him no good. I have lived in Kirtland for nearly a year, and I have yet to meet the first old citizen who knows anything against the honesty of Rigdon, Harris, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery or David Whitmer, and I have made it a point to talk with all I have met on this subject; and only last evening when we had made the statement that he could prove so and so about these men, an old gentleman who was never in any way connected with the Saints, came to me and said, "It is a falsehood. He can't do it. I have lived here for fifty years and was acquainted with those men, and he slanders them." There
    are men here who have heard these stories and who can repeat them, but what evidence is this? I have heard stories too, ever since I was ten years old, about Joseph Smith and others, and usually they have been proven to be false. If Braden is telling the truth about what he can prove here about these men, why does he have to call his audience, -- who do not agree with me in religion, "Danites and clackers," because they repudiate these false and slanderous assertions?

    We have a Justice of the Peace here in Kirtland, and if you want to make your contest on that kind of evidence, we will set an hour for the bringing of testimony to-morrow, and bring our witnesses and have them sworn. I am ready to present witnesses with you on these points. But the Kirtland bank, that was a failure, he says. Was it the only one in Ohio at that time that failed? No, there were dozens. It was in the time of the "wild cat" banking system in Ohio and other states and the hard times which came on in 1836 and 1837-8, property sunk in values, and the banks went under everywhere. In the State of Illinois, where my father lived, a man could not get cash for labor at any price and formerly well to do men could not meet their taxes even. In this time the Kirtland bank went with the others, except it did not swindle the poor. Besides the hard times being against the Kirtland bank, there was also an organized opposition to it by those opposed to the religion of the Saints, which tended to much more cripple it. The Saints when they came here paid good prices for whatever they bought; mortgaged their farms and lands thus bought to secure the balance of the purchase price on them in many instances, and the hard times coming on, they were forced to sacrifice their places and pay their debts; this they did, and he thinks it was awful wicked. Does the subsequent history of these people show that they could not succeed in business as well as other people? Notwithstanding the fact that their properties were taken from them by mobs, and they were driven from their homes, the history shows they were equal to all the emergencies, and in knowledge, wealth, honesty, integrity of heart, and the true worship of God, they were the peers of any other people.

    Smith and Rigdon left Kirtland in 1837, because continually harassed by mobs and conspirators, who were using every means possible to injure them in person and property. These conspirators even went so far as to persuade other men into their work who were honest in their intentions, but who did not realize the object and base purposes of the conspirators until afterwards. Crimes were permitted and charged to the Saints when they were perpetrated by their enemies; and years after, right here in Kirtland, one of these enemies upon a profession of religion in a protracted meeting, confessed to being the person who stole a plow in the interest of their gang and

    366                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    which was laid to one of the Saints, and they even perjured themselves to convict an innocent man, and made him suffer the penalty because of his religion. A tool chest was stolen from one Hinds and laid to the Saints, but a search warrant found it in a loft of the minister who was working up this mob. All this evidence comes from Braden's side. The Saints had to guard the Temple night and day while they were erecting it, and suffered untold wrongs and outrages by a people who ought to have been their friends. For this, they hold no malice however, knowing that the men who did it, were as a rule deceived and put up to the terrible work by a few unprincipled leaders, who were always far out of danger in the back ground. It was like it was in the time of Jesus and the Apostles. The self-constituted clergy and priests urged the populace to blood and vengeance and hence, Jesus says: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

    Braden charged this terrible work to infidels, last night. How could he so insult
    your good senses as to so deliberately misrepresent that tragedy? It was the chief priests and rulers, who urged the people on: the only avowed disbeliever in the Bible known to be present was Pilate; and he persisted, "that he found no fault in Jesus," and those pious priests (?) cried out: "Away with this man and give us Barabbas!" But Pilate spoke to them urging again the release of Jesus; and these pious hypocrites cried out, "Crucify him!" "Crucify him!" Our infidel friends have enough sins of their own to answer for, without piling upon them the terrible crimes of religious bigots. But my opponent ensnares himself whichever way he turns. He is a man walking in darkness, although supposed to be learned after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. He has no word of God to be a lamp to his feet and guide to his pathway, because he denies the office work of the oil, the unction, -- the Holy Spirit -- that throws light upon this word and gives the proper understanding.

    Time called.



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- In the discussion of this question I have investigated, as duty demanded, the character of Mormonism, and of its originators and authors. I read the testimony of persons of the highest character. Unable to meet it, there was introduced last night the lying abuse of an infidel blackguard. It was read by a similar character. His Danite band of similar characters greeted it with their accustomed Danite yells. It is what infidelity deals in. The Book of Doctrines and Covenants declares that the Saints will be equal with Christ. It is blasphemy. Joe took from the Book of Mormon his fool prophecy in regard to himself, and with transcendent blasphemy, put it in the Bible as the words of the Almighty. I did not quote the passage about "inheritance by blood," nor refer to it in quoting the Book of Doctrines and Covenants. I referred to two passages preaching a crusade against the Missourians. He says Moses and Elias are angels. Where does the Bible say so? Angels assumed the form of men and were called men. Thw angel in Revelations did not say "I am one of the prophets," but "a fellow servant of the prophets." Mrs Chase had a peep-stone. That is one of Granny Smith's lies, and she says it was Chase's daughter not his wife. As he was a minister, neither is true. Gabriel and Elijah are the same. Chapter and verse for it, if you please.

    "Baptism for the dead" is quoted. Baptism is in the likeness of the burial and resurrection of Christ, a type of it. In imitation of it. Paul says, "that the dead rise your baptism shows." It is in imitation of the dead, or death and resurrection of Christ. Its resurrection from the water proves that the dead are resurrected. It is "baptize in imitation of the dead," or death of Christ. The language in Matthew speaks of three things in each case. Salvation of good trees, salvation of the wheat, and baptism in the Spirit. All these are for the good. Evil trees, burning chaff and baptism in fire. All for the evil. "You" includes both classes, just as when it is said God will reward every man according to his works. If Joe Smith knew enough to translate, he could do so. As he was an ignoramus, the talk about his translating and correcting revelation is blasphemous nonsense. Emma Smith, as her language is reported by Joe III in "Life of Joseph the Seer," does declare she saw the plates and handled them, covered with a cloth. None but the three were to see the plates in the way they did. It does not say so, and is a paltry dodge. Jacob and others saw God's representatives. Hosea says Jacob wrestled with an angel.

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     367

    Isaiah says it was an angel that led Israel in the wilderness. "No man hath seen God at any time."

    He cannot find in the Bible such a tricky, selfish, jealous talk as we cited from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. My opponent shows his ignorance in assuming that "cut off" means death. In one case a person was cut off for seven days. It means separate from the congregation, excommunication, and some times put to death. He shows his infidel ignorance in saying there was one small window in the ark. Genesis says the word used means a system of windows. Gilbert said there were no capital letters at the beginning of sentences. He said nothing about capitals in any other place. We know all about God that he can know -- what God has revealed. We know more, for we do not bury it and obscure it under Joe Smith's materialism and lying revelations. He finds persons who were priests and officiated as priests outside of the Aaronic priesthood, and assumes they were Melchezedek priests because they were not Aaronic priests. That is like assuming that a man must be an Irishman because he is not an American. He might be a Dutchman. Let him prove they were Melchezedek priests. There was Melchezedek and there was another -- Christ. Only Melchezedek and Christ.

    We have already exposed the violence and intolerance exhibited by Mormonism. It began in abuse of all who would not accept the fraud, and has since been carried on by violence, denunciation and vilification of all who oppose it. It began with abuse of all who opposed it in New York. This was carried to violence and plotting assassination in Kirtland. It culminated in the Danite band, and assassination in Missouri, and Nauvoo. Smith was notoriously quarrelsome when intoxicated. Mormon pilgrims to New York can have pointed out to them, by citizens of Manchester, the tree to which he tied his father, when he flogged him. He was taken to Painesville while in Kirtland and tried for assault on his brother-in-law, Calvin Stoddard. He told a dupe of his by the name of M. C. Davis, that it was the will of the Lord that Grandison Newell should be removed. His Danite, with a young man who lived in Smith's family, went to obey the revelation. The Danite tool took, aim at Newell in the bosom of his family, when his better nature revolted at the horrid crime, this murderous villainous, impostor had sent him to do, and Newell was spared. On another occasion he sent three thugs under the leadership of one Bump, to waylay Newell, and murder him as he returned from Painesville. They lay in wait with loaded guns for hours. Providentially, Newell took another road, and escaped Joe's fiendish hate again

    The spirit that actuated him in Kirtland can be seen in another fact. Mr. William Smith one morning visited a Mormon neighbor by the name of Cluff. He
    observed a pike setting behind the door. On inquiry he found that Mormons had been provided with these murderous weapons...

    Remainder of column not yet transcribed

    368                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 368 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     369

    page 369 still under construction

    One of the idiotic tomfooleries of Kirtland was speaking in different tongues. This idiotic farce is still kept up by the Re-organized. It was practiced in the convention last Spring. Mr. Higbee, once a Mormon Elder, tells how David Patton, a Mormon emissary, commanded him to arise and speak in tongues. He faltered. "Speak as
    you list." ordered Patton. He then gabbled words that Patton called a tongue. Others gabbled in the same manner. Reynolds Cahoon gave them this rule: "Make some sound, continue to make sounds, the Lord will make a language of it." Persons would frequently sing in this gibberish in a drawl or whine, they called a tune. They said these songs would be sung when the lost tribes appeared in Missouri. One of the women who spoke in the convention in Kirtland last Spring, drawled out, "Ah-Pish-e-Ta," "Ah-Pish-e-Ta," those four syllables over and over. That's the work of the Spirit of God. Another eye witness tells of this scene. A number of Elders and Priests assembled in a room in Kirtland. Smith exhorted them to exercise faith, and some would see the Lord in person. He declared the time was coming when no one would be allowed to preach unless they had seen the Lord. About as sensible as my opponent's claim that all Mormon preachers are called as Aaron was called, and that they have miraculous power. Soon he said to Rigdon, "Sidney, you have seen the Lord." Sidney mounted Ahasuerus's horse and shouted, "I saw the image of a man pass before my face, whose locks were white and whose countenance was exceeding fair, even surpassing all beauty...

    page 369 still under construction

    370                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 370 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     371

    affidavit that it is true. I will furnish the statements of Abel Chase and Lorenzo Saunders. I will not manufacture evidence and tell what a dozen witnesses told me. Think of the infinite impudence of E. L. Kelley's attacking men who have been judges of State Courts, Congressmen, leading business men, the best citizens of Palmyra and Manchester, men whose shoes he is not fit to clean. It is as impudent as the conduct of himself and brother. On Sunday morning two Danites made a raid on several old peoplein Manchester. They refused to give their names, tell who or what they were, or their business. They asked questions, sneered at the answers, laughed over them, disputed them, insulted the ones on whom they had forced their impudent presence, and bulldozed generally; and then went off and manufactured a report, that the persons interviewed declare under solemn oath to be a tissue of dilberate falsehoods. Such is the character of the course of Kelley the witness and Kelley the pettifogger for Mormonism. It is in keeping with his client's character.

    In regard to Jeffery's evidence, we have this to say. Mormon history shows that Rigdon lived in Nauvoo and not in Pittsburg in 1843, until late in the year. That he did lead in Mormon business. That in Sept. 1844, he was in Nauvoo, trying to take Smith's place. That he told the apostles, September 14th, 1844, that if they did not place him in Smith's place, he would tell the secrets of Mormonism. They rejected him. In the Mormon official organ appeared bitter denunciations of Rigdon for exposing Mormonism. It was precisely at this time that Jeffery declares he told him what he narrates in his testimony. Every fact in Mormon history in regard to the matter corroborates Jeffery's statement. Kelley's statement[s] in his attempt to set it to one side are flat contradictions of Mormon publications.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- I appear before you this time to conclude my work of the debate...

    page 371 still under construction

    372                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 372 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     373

    page 373 still under construction .

    374                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 374 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     375

    page 375 still under construction .

    376                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 376 still under construction page 376 still under construction

    Has my opponent showed a single thing wherein we differed from the doctrine of Christ?

    All of you must say no. He has been all the time telling stories on Smith, Rigdon, Whitmer, et al., and raking around in the dust of the Spaulding story. But that story is done. I have traced that tale to its very seat. I found the manuscript for him, showed him it was placed in the hands of one of his first citizens," Hulburt; that it was then put into the hands of another of his first citizens," Howe; that then these two "first citizens" had said it did not read as they expected and they did not use it; that afterwards they tried to make out it was not the one, in order to protect their "statements" of certain parties; that they were foiled in this because the one they had was the one on parchment which purported on its face to have been "Found in a Cave;" that Howe and Hulburt promised to return

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     377

    this to Mrs. Spaulding which, had they done, it would have forever prohibited them from claiming it was not the right one, and that they broke their promise and destroyed it; but they kept their statements from trumped up persons who were bent on sinking the Book of Mormon and published them. That satisfies me on the Spaulding tale forever.

    I have not only showed you all of this
    and the identity in faith, practices, ordinances, organization and work of the church, but that we were in fact sowing the word of God which Jesus promised should bring forth fruit "some an hundred fold, some sixty and some thirty." I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your every courtesy and attention.  (Applause).  

    C E R T I F I C A T E.

    I hereby certify that I have corrected and prepared the foregoing speechs of myself without access to, or consoltation with those of Mr. Braden since the debate. Have read the proofs of the same furnished by the publishers, and that they have been set forth as delivered in the discussion of the respective propositions.
                                 E. L. KELLEY.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- We will merely notice the frantic effort of my opponent to set to one side the evidence that Joe Smith was author of the revelation on polygamy. The facts are these: In the first number of the official organ of the Re-organized Mormon faction there appeared -- I. A statement in the first and leading editorial written by Zenos H. Gurley, that Joseph was the author of that revelation and was slain for his conduct in the matter. Gurley was one of the Re-organizers, was a leader, and is to-day. II. A statement by Isaac Sheen, one of the Re-organizers, and a leader, one of the editors, that Smith said that he was the author of it and said that it caused all of his troubles, and would cost him his life. Kelley says Sheen retracted it. I deny it. He cannot furnish one scrap of proof. III. Another statement by W. H. Marks, another Re-organizer and editor, that while Smith was prophet and his influence was omnipotent in the church, polygamy prevailed to such an extent that Marks declared the only way to purify the church was to dis-organize it; that Smith became alarmed and come to Marks, whom he had been denouncing as an apostate for opposing polygamy, to get him to help stay the tide of infamy, believing that public feeling would drive Mormons and polygamy out of the country. These declarations stood unchallenged fifteen years. Now Mormons are trying to lie out of them.

    In the discussion of this question we tested Mormonism by its teachings in regard to the eight freat elements of Christianity...

    page 377 still under construction

    378                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 378 still under construction page 378 still under construction

    We exposed the materialistic, sensualist nature of the teachings of Mormonism in regard to the Millennium, and the final

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     379

    reward for the righteous. Rigdon in his gross literalizing of the figurative teaching of the Bible, made nonsense out of them, and taught the most absurd, extravagant, and gross materialistic ideas of the Millennium and future life. Sensible Mormons gide the[s]e ideas, as they do his gross literal material teaching in regard to God...

    page 379 still under construction

    We next assailed the name. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, by the apostles, a true reading declares, Mormons were called Latter-day Saints at Kirtland, by Rigdon. The Holy Spirit called the congregations "Churches of God," "Churches of Christ." Mormons called their monstrosity with its officers as numerous as the devils cast out of the man in the tombs "The Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." We have exposed the Book of Mormon. We have traced its origin in Spaulding's "Manuscript Found." Proved by Rigdon himself that he took it from the office, where Spaulding sent it to be printed. That he remodelled it into a pretended revelation by putting into it portions of the Bible and his own notions. We have proved that he gave it to Smith to publish to the world as a pretended revelation, dug from the earth and translated by his stolen
    peep-stone. That he was seen at Smith's and was absent often when engaged in this work. That he preached its ideas and prepared his congregations, converts, and certain preachers to receive it. That he predicted its coming. That Pratt went from him to Smith, and came back to him. We have exposed that transparent fraud, his pretended conversion. We have exposed the Rigdonisms on every page...

    page 379 still under construction

    380                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 380 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     381

    the purity or the text of the Bible. That has been done in this debate. Any decent infidel would denounce as an ignoramus a person who would make such charges as have been made in this debate. When the vile character of the prophet and leaders have been exposed, it eclipses Ingersoll in his infidel attacks on the character of the Bible personages. Every unfair mis-representation and sneer of infidelity has been repeated here. When its pretended miracles are exposed, it assails with more than infidel falsehood those of the Bible. That has been done in this debate. Sneers have been thrown out about "Jonah swallowing the whale." Yet this infidel system is the "Fullness of the Gospel." Its organization is the only true Church of God now on earth. Its infidel emissaries have the miraculous power of Spirit, -- can work miracles -- give revelations, and those who believe the Bible, and defend it, are apostles from the Bible; because they do not accept the lying frauds of these infidels. Infidelity recognizes its ally wherever Mormonism rears its head. There is never a debate with Mormonism, that infidelity in the place does not hurrah for Mormonism.

    Mormonism had its origin in a scheme of a backslidden doubting preacher, to deceive the world, in pretending that he had dug a manuscript from the earth and translated it; that he might get money out of it. Some think that his stupid plagiarism of Bible style was intended as a deliberate caricature of the Bible. This intended fraud was stolen by a back-slidden sceptical preacher who blasphemously plagiarized the the ideas and language of the Bible to re-model it into a pretended revelation, to make a "big thing out of it." It was given to the world by an infidel, an admirer of Paine, who was duping the superstitious and ignorant
    with pretences to witch for water, peep for lost treasures, etc. It has displayed its infidelity and hostility to the Bible all through its course. If an error of Mormonism was exposed it retorted with an infidel attack on the Bible. It assails the Bible to revenge the exposure that friends of the Bible have made of its fraudulent character. When we point out that it is destitute of the evidence that an inspired book should have, it re-hashes infidel falsehoods that the books of the Bible are no better. It asserts, in the face of all history, that the Books of the New Testament were composed two or three hundred years after Christ.

    Mormonism is a hodge-podge of Mosaism, Mahommedanism, Methodism, Episcopalianism, Catholicism, Campbellism, Rigdonism, Smithism and Prattism. Infidelity, Mesmeric Power and Devilism. Imfidelity was its father, ignorance and superstition was its mother, and like Milton's whoredom of Satan and Sin, the monstrous progeny has been death.

    All who accept the Bible and believe that the Scriptures are given by inspiration, and are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, and that by the Scriptures all children of God are made perfect, and thoroughly furnished unto all good works, will reject this monster Mormonism. All who accept Jesus as the only Divine Prophet, source of all teaching, their only Divine King, source of all law, will reject the backslidden, doubting Solomon Spaulding, the unprincipled, infidel Sidney Rigdon, the scoundrelly infidel pretender of Manchester, Joe Smith, with his stolen peep-stone. They will accept the one God, one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, one baptism, one hope, one body, one name of the religion of Christ.

    C E R T I F I C A T E.

    I hereby certify that my speechs appear in this book just as I furnished them to the printer, without any restrictions whatever. I read all the proofs myself, and my speechs are printed just as I directed, without any change or restriction.
                                 CLARK BRADEN.

    382                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    A P P E N D I C E S.

    page 382 still under construction

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     383

    page 383 still under construction .

    384                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 384 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     385

    page 385 still under construction .

    386                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 386 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     387

    page 387 still under construction .

    388                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 388 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     389

    page 389 still under construction .

    390                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    page 390 still under construction .

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     391

    . page 391 still under construction

    APPENDIX, No. 2.

    REUBEN P. HARMON, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:

    Q. What is your age Mr. Harmon?  A. I am 69 years old.
    Q. How long have you lived in the vicinity of Kirtland?  A. I came to Kirtland in the year 1822; I have been absent part of the time in the South, perhaps six years during that time; part of the time here and part of the time in the South.
    Q. Were you acquainted with Martin Harris while he lived here?  A. I was, sir.
    Q. Were you acquainted with his reputation for truth and veracity when he lived here?  A. I was.
    Q. State what that was.  A. It was good, so far as I knew, sir.
    Q. What was his reputation for honesty?  A. He frequently came to my house, and very frequently stayed over night; sometimes two or three days.
    Q. How often did you see him, and for how many years did you know him?  A. I knew him most of the time until he went west to Salt Lake or Utah.
    Q. About how many years ago was that?  A. It is a good many years, and I would have to figure up from the dates. It is quite a number of years ago.
    Q. What was his general reputation for honesty.  A. I have never heard his character for honesty questioned by any one.
    Q. Were you personally acquainted with Oliver Cowdery?  A. I was, but not as intimately as with Harris.
    Q. How long did he live here?  A. I should think about six years, but I am not positive.
    Q. Did you know what his general reputation for truth and veracity in the neighborhood was at the time he lived here?  A. I did, and the whole Cowdery family; Oliver Cowdery's reputation was good.
    Q. Did David Whitmer live here, or did you know him?  A. I did, and I never heard anything against him.
    Q. Were you acquainted with Joseph Smith?  A. I was acquainted with him.
    Q. You may state anything you know

    392                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    about his conduct as being bad.  A. I never knew anything bad about him.
    Q. How long were you acquainted with him?  A. Well. I can't give the dates. It might trouble me to give dates. From the time he came here till he went West.
    Q. Did you know what his reputation was as to truth and veracity in this place at the time?  A. I had opportunity of knowing it.
    Q. Did you know?  A. Yes, sir. I did know.
    Q. What was that reputation?  A. I regarded that it was good.
    Q. What was his reputation for honesty. State that.  I never heard it questioned.
    Q. Did you belong to the church?  A. I did not belong to any church.
    Q. Now I will ask you to state with regard to the people known as Mormons, or Latter Day Saints, who lived here at that time. What was their general character as compared with people of other neighborhoods, Mr. Harmon? Just state how the people here compared with people in other places.  A. I would say that I had no right to question their honesty. I have heard reports, but I do not know anything against them.
    Q. Mr. Harmon, was Mr. Harris's word always considered reliable in matters of religion? or did he tell big yarns and wondrous stories?  A. He held ideas that I did not agree with.
    Q. Well, did he not tell extravagant stories of wonderful visions of sights and sounds?  A. I have never heard him tell many stories. With regard to his testimony about seeing the plates, and Joseph Smith, and the method of translation, some might think them extravagant stories.
    Q. Would you regard his statements as visionary?  A. I would, that is some of them.
    Q. I will ask you, Mr. Harmon, if these stories that you regarded as visionary, were stories about visions, and whether that is the reason you call them so?  A. Yes, sir.
    Q. Were his stories any more extravagant than others have stated with regard to visions, etc., in your opinion?  A About the same. John Wesley makes more extravagant expressions than I ever heard Harris make, as found in his work.
    Q. Do you set Mr. Harris with the rest of them? Was he honest?  A. I always must regard him as being honest with respect to the Book of Mormon and its translation; and do not know but what he was honest in his visions. I think that he was honest in his visions.
    Q. Did you know Sidney Rigdon? and when did you first know him?  A. I think I knew Sidney Rigdon in 1828 or 1829. He was then preaching in Mentor; preaching what we call Disciple doctrine. He came to my father's and held meetings in his barn, and baptized quite a number.
    Q. How long afterwards did you know him?  A. I knew him all through. Most of the time till he left Kirtland.
    Q. What was his reputation for truth
    and veracity in this vicinity?.  A. I never heard it questioned.
    Q.  What was his character other than for truth and veracity?  A, I shall have to go into the description of the man.I heard him preach a funeral sermon in 1829. I heard him preach frequently after that. He is a man, I should judge, who had acquired a classical education. I would regard him as a good English scholar, and, perhaps, as well versed in the Bible and history as any other man that I ever heard speak; having read Grecian and Roman history, he frequently used descriptions from these authors. He was eloquent in language, and an excellent speaker, and carried an audience with him. He established a church in Mentor, also came and held a revival in Kirtland. The meeting-house, a one-story building, was completed in Mentor at the time when Oliver Cowdery and Parley P. Pratt come on here. I heard Sidney Rigdon [in] the last speech that he made while he officiated as a Disciple preacher. He said he had been mistaken all his life-long, and he quit preaching and went into Mr. Morely's field and went to plowing. Worked at common labor for some time, until he took up the Latter Day Saint doctrine and began to preach it. He did not go to preaching right away after he left the Disciple church. I heard him make the remark that he never expected to speak in public again. There was quite a church of the Disciples here in Kirtland, and he carried a portion of them with him into the Latter Day Saints' church. He preached that doctrine from that time on until he left here. I considered him a good Latter Day Saint member.
    Q. What is your opinion from what you saw and heard of him, in regard to the story that he was connected with Joseph Smith in getting up the Book of Mormon?  A. I never could make out in my own mind that Mr. Rigdon ever had anything to do with the getting up of the Book of Mormon.
    Q. Do you think there was an opportunity for Mr. Rigdon to have some access to Spaulding's manuscript at the time the Book of Mormon was gotten up.  A. At that time he was preaching in Mentor.
    Q. Did you ever hear him state his own views as to whether he ever had any connection with Smith and the Spaulding story, as it was charged to him?  A. I heard him make this remark in his last speech that he made to the public here. He said "It was a thing that I never thought of until Oliver Cowdery and Parley Pratt introduced it to me." When all of these stories first started about his having been connected with Smith, and the getting up of the Book of Mormon, they were first circulated by a man by the name of Hulburt. He raised a little contribution in order to go to New York state, and inquire into the matter. He was a man of bad character, and I think he had been connected with the Latter Day Saint Church. We made up a contribution and sent him back to Palmyra to investigate the character of the

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     393

    Smith family, and the means of their acquiring the Book of Mormon. He went on and got affidavits. The meeting was held in the Presbyterian church.
    Q. Were you in the meeting and one of the parties who sent him?  A. Yes, sir; but I will say, however, that Sidney Rigdon at the time he made his last speech here, said that he knew nothing about the Book of Mormon until it was presented to him by Oliver Cowdery and Parley Pratt. I never heard of the Spaulding story until it was sprung on  me.
    Q. Did you know anything about Hulburt getting the manuscript?  A. No, sir. We sent him to get the affidavits. He got most of them in Palmyra. The principal ones are in a book that I have over here.
    Q. Is it the affidavits in Howe's book that you refer to?  A. Yes, sir.
    Q. Did you know about these same persons sending him to New York to get a manuscript?  A. They sent him to gather all the information he could about the Latter Day Saint Church.
    Q. Did he get the affidavits first, or the manuscript?  A. He did not get the manuscript at all, that I know of. I never saw the manuscript. He said he saw a man who had read the Book of Mormon, and that he said that it resembled the manuscript.
    Q. Did you see him after he returned from the widow of Solomon Spaulding, where he went to get the manuscript?  A. No, sir.
    Q. Were you ever in the Saint's meetings while they were here in Kirtland?  A. Oh! Yes sir.
    Q. Did you ever see anything disorderly or unbecoming in them?  A. No, sir.
    Q. Did you ever attend any of the meetings of the Disciple church?  A. I was in the meetings of the Disciples that were held on Mr. Morley's farm. A man by the name of Billings preached. The first ceremony that I remember witnessing was the washing of feet. It was in a little log building, the Disciple church. It was while Mr. Rigdon was preaching in Mentor. Afterwards I frequently went to their meetings that were held on the Morley place.
    Q. When you attended the early meetings of the Saints, how did they act?  A. After the discovery of the Book of Mormon there were frequently meetings around here and a large concourse of people attended them. Many came out of curiosity. They had singing and praying and a little preaching, and sort of social meetings.
    Q. Would any of the women or men have the power?  A. This negro, Black Pete, that they spoke of came here at an early time with a man from Pennsylvania. I saw him in that condition in a log building lying on his back.
    Q. Was he a member of the Latter Day Saint church?  A. I do not know.
    Q. Did you ever see any one else in that condition in their meetings?  No, sit; only this negro. He would hump up and display a great deal of strength and activity.
    Q. Was any of the ministers present?  A. I do not think there was. I did not hear of any more such performances after Joseph Smith came here.
    Q. Did you ever see anything of the kind in the meetings held by Parley Pratt, Oliver Cowdery or Sidney Rigdon, after Rigdon united with the Saints?  A. No. I have heard them talk in tongues some, and heard Joseph Smith interpret once.
    Q. Did you ever see any one fall down in their meetings after Joseph Smith came here?  A. No, sir. I did not. A attended their large meetings, and when there was a sacrament of cold water and bread.
    Q. You were well acquianted with the people, were you?  A. Yes, sir.
    Q. Tell me what you know about any one of them having more wives than one?  A. If Martin Harris can be regarded as authority, there was no such thing as polygamy among them until they went to Salt Lake. He told me so. There was nothing of the kind that I ever heard of. I have heard them speak against polygamy.
    Q. Would you be afraid that your property would be insecure if the Latter Day Saints were to come back here?  A. No, I never was afraid of my neighbors taking my property, and I would not be of them.

          REUBEN P. HARMON.

    A. E. SANBORN, having been produced and duly sworn, testifies as follows:
    Q. Mr. Sanborn, where do you live?  A. I live about a mile East of here.
    Q. How long have you lived here?  A. About 47 years.
    Q. Were you acquainted with the Latter Day Saints at the time they lived here?  A. Yes, sir; and before they came here.
    Q. Were you acquainted with Martin Harris?  A. Yes, sir, I was.
    Q. Did you know his reputation for truth and veracity in the neighborhood when he lived here?  A. I never heard it questioned.
    Q. Was his reputation good or bad?  A. It was good. Nobody disputed his word in anything, unless it was his visionary stories. He was, to my mind, a little visionary.
    Q. You may state if it was not on account of what he related about seeing the plates that makes you think he was visionary  A. Why, yes, I should think so.
    Q. Were you personally acquainted with Oliver Cowdery?  A. No, sir.
    Q. Were you personally acquainted with Joseph Smith?  A. Yes, sir. I was acquainted with Joseph Smith.
    Q. Do you know what his reputation was for truth and veracity at the time he lived here in this neighborhood?  A. At the time he lived here until the time he went west (he went before I did) it was not questioned. I lived just across the street from him in Nauvoo.

    394                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    Q. You may state all you know about him.  A. Well, I knew him to be a kind, generous and truthful neighbor; he was a very kind man.
    Q. What was his general moral character?  A. It was good.
    Q. Were you acquainted with Sidney Rigdon?  A. Yes, sir. He lived pretty close to Smith. Probably fifteen rods away.
    Q. What kind of a man was Rigdon? State as nearly as you can describe him?  A. Well, he was quite a good looking man; would weigh about 200 pounds; had rather a round face, shortish countenance and squeaking voice. For that reason I never liked to hear him preach. Some called him a good orator, but I did not. I never knew anything about him but what was all right as to character.
    Q. What was his reputation for truth and veracity?  A. I never heard it questioned, either here or in Nauvoo, and I lived there close by him, and talked with him nearly every week.
    Q. Did you know David Whitmer?  A. I do not recollect him. If he lived in Kirtland I do not recollect him at all.
    Q. Were you living at Nauvoo at the time of Smith's death?  A. I lived there until the fall of 1840, and then I came back here to Kirtland.
    Q. Were you living here all the time the Saints were here?  A. Oh, no. They were here when I came. This temple was built in 1834. I came in the spring, and I think it was dedicated in the spring of 1836. I have been a little confounded. I suppose the temple was dedicated when it was finished. This is all I recollect about it. I came here the spring it was dedicated and think it was in 1836.
    Q. What did you know of the people when you lived here, if anything that was immoral?  A. I do not know anything. There was some stealing going on at the time the Mormons were here. It was laid on the Mormons by some at the time; but afterwards there was a revival here in the Presbyterian church, in which the parties that did the stealing owned to it. They were Presbyterians..
    Q. State whether they were in the practice of polygamy here or not?  A. Not that I knew of.
    Q. You would have known it if they had been, would you not?  A. I ought to, my father was a Mormon.


    Q. Mr. Harris' word and honor was regarded good in matters of business, but when telling his religious experience you thought it visionary?  A. We rather thought him visionary.


    Q. During your acquaintance and intimate association with Sidney Rigdon, what was your judgment with reference to his being connected with the Book of Mormon before its publication?  A. I do not know anything at all as to that. I had this
    Anti-Mormon book 40 years ago, but I cannot find it now.
    Q. Did you ever gather from any conversation you had with Rigdon that he was connected in any way with the publication of the Book of Mormon?  A. I never talked with him anything about that.
    Q. State what you know about the introduction of polygamy into the church.  A. I attended meetings both in Nauvoo and here in Kirtland, both in the evenings and on the Sabbath, and I never heard anything of polygamy at all until after Smith's death.

          A. E. SANBORN.

    J. M. PLAISTED, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:
    Q. Mr. Plaisted, how long have you lived here in Kirtland?  A. I have always lived here. I was born in Kirtland. I was born in 1831.
    Q. Were you acquainted with any of the Latter Day Saints while they lived here?  A. I was well acquainted with Martin Harris at the time he lived here.
    Q. Do you know what his reputation for truth and veracity was in the neighborhood at the time?  A. It was good.
    Q. What was his general character as to honesty?  A. It was considered good. I was well acquainted with him. Have lived in the same house with him.


    Q. Was he noted for his extravagant claims and extravagant stories in religion?  A. Yes, sir. He always wanted to be preaching. That seemed to be on his mind. He understood the Bible first-rate and was quoting Scripture a good deal of the time.


    Q. Did it not arise from the fact that he had told that he had seen the plates?  A. I think it did.
    Q. He said he had seen the plates and other people thought he had not?  A. Yes, sir; I have heard him say that the Lord appeared to him.
    Q. In what manner did he say the Lord appeared?  A. I do not know as I can state. I have told him that he would go crazy if he did not quit talking on that subject all the time.

    (Signed)            J. M. PLAISTED.

    EZRA BOND, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:
    Q. Mr. Bond, were you acquainted with Sidney Rigdon?  A. Yes, sir; I was.
    Q. You may state at what time you became acquainted with him.  A. In the year 1834.
    Q. How long afterwards did you know him?  A. I could not state definitely, but during the years of his sojourn here. I think from the fall of 1834 to 1836. In fact, until he left here. This has been my home from that time until now.
    Q. You may state if you know what his reputation was for truth and veracity.  A. I cannot say. I was but a boy at that time, eight years old.

                      THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                     395

    Q. Were you acquainted with Martin Harris?  A. Yes, sir. In the years after, while he resided here.
    Q. What time was that?  A. From 1834 until he left. I do not know when that was.
    Q. You frequently met him during the time he was here, did you?  A. Yes, sir.
    Q. Do you know what his reputation was for truth and veracity in this neighborhood while he lived here?  A. He was considered a truthful man. I have had some deal with him, and always found he acted honest and manly. That is my testimony to that respect. He might have been liable to be mistaken, but with no intention of telling an untruth.
    Q. The people did not believe his statement about seeing the plates and the angel?  A. No, sir. He was regarded as a kind of enthusiast, or monomaniac on the religious question.
    Q. Was he in the habit of making extravagant statements?  A. He was in the habit od stating that the Lord had told him this or that thing. He seemed well versed in the scriptures, and was over anxious to give his opinions, and would talk to any one who would listen to him.
    Q. Were not his sayings thought extravagant, because they pertained to visions, or hearing the voice of the Lord?  A. Yes. People did not believe in such things. He was regarded in business as an honest and truthful man. I have known people that knew him in New York state and here and that is the reputation they gave of him regarding business.
    Q. Mr. Bond, you have been in the Saints' meetings here during the time of your living here, have you not?  A. Yes, sir.
    Q. State if you ever saw them fall down, act senseless, or anything in that way?  A. No, sir.
    Q. How old were you in 1832?  A. I was born in 1826. I remember Sidney Rigdon better than any one else, as he was their foremost speaker. He spoke in the temple a great deal.

    (Signed)            EZRA . BOND.

    F. C. RICH, being duly sworn, testifies as follows:
    Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Ricjh?  A. In the city of Cleveland.
    Q. Did you ever live in Kirtland?  A. Yes, sir. I came here in 1831.
    Q. Did you know, or were you acquaibted with Joseph Smith, Martin Harris and Sidney Rigdon, or either of them? Did you know their reputation for truth and veracity in the neighborhood at the time they lived here? and were you acquainted with their moral character?  A. I knew nothing against them. I was but a boy however, but the outsiders persecuted them on account of their religious views.
    Q. You had an opportunity to know?  A. Yes, sir; my father was here in an early day and was connected with the church.
    Q. Were you in their meetings frequently?  A. Yes, sir. Brought right up in the church. The first meeting I recollect very much about was after the temple was finished. I attended meetings right along after it was completed. I was too young during its building to take any particular notice outside.
    Q. Did you ever see anything of an immoral tendency in the meetings?  A. Nothing that could be considered immoral. They shouted Hossanah, and seemed to enjoy their religion; and, of course, got excited as other people do.
    Q. Did you ever see them fall down and go into fits, or anything of that kind?  A. No sir.
    Q. You may state what you know about any of the leading men being temperate or intemporate men; also in regard to their swearing, or drinking, or anything of the kind.  A. They were men of good moral habits and temperate. Men that did not drink ardent spirits at any time.
    Q. What time did you live here?  A. I lived in Kirtland from a boy 10 years old until about ten years ago. I came here before the temple was built. I never heard of the spikes referred to before.
    Q. Did your father ever have such a thing as a spike; such as Brsaden has shown?  A. I never saw any spike. I do not think he required any.
    Q. Mr Rich, if the spikes had been very common around would you not have been likely to have known it? A, I suppose I should; would have been very apt to, I think.
    Q. You may state whether they believed in having more than one wife?  A. I never heard they were in favor of anything of the kind here.
    Q. You heard them talk with your father, heard the elders preach, was in their meetings, and mixed with them in all the affairs of life; if there had been anything wrong or bad in their teachings and habits would you not have known it?  A. I am perfectly satisfied that the church did not teach or practice polygamy, or any other immoral doctrine while they were in Kirtland.

    (Signed)            F. C. RICH.

    STATE OF OHIO,    
    The above-named F. C. Rich, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statement to which he has subscribed his name is true in substance and in fact.
             (Signed)            F. C. RICH.

    Sworn to before me and subscribed in my presence this 10th day of June, A. D. 1884.
             (Signed)            ALEX ELMSLIE,
                                    Notary Public.

    I, S.C. Carpenter, a Justice of the Peace in and for the township of Kirtland, Lake County, Ohio, do hereby certify that the above-named Reuben P. Harmon, A. E. Sanborn, Ezra Bond and J. M. Plaisted were

    396                   THE   BRADEN   AND   KELLEY   DEBATE.                    

    .by me duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth asnd nothing but the truth; that the foregoing depositions by them respectively subscribed were reduced to writing by Mr. Fay in my presence on the 8th day of March, A. D. 1884, at Kirtland in the county and state aforesaid; and by said witnesses respectively subscribed in my presence.

    In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand this 11th day of June, A. D. 1884.
             (Signed)      S. C. CARPENTER,
                          Justice of the Peace.

    APPENDIX No. 3.

                  CLEVELAND, OHIO, March 1, 1884.
    DAVID WHITMER, Esq., Richmond, Mo. Dear Sir:-- A person by the name of J. H. Gilbert at Palmyra, N. Y., claims, I am told, that he set the type for the Book of Mormon and that there were no capital letters beginning sentences and proper names in the printers' manuscript; and if there are any in now they have been put in since.

    Will you please examine the manuscript in your possession which you claim to be the original of the Book of Mormon, and ascertain as to whether there are capital letters and whether, if there are such, they are in the original writing? Or have they been placed in since?

    Does the manuscript show any marks of having passed through the printers' hands? You will oblige by answering at once, as I desire to get the facts in the matter. It is also claimed that Oliver Cowdery denied his testimony.
                 Very Respectfully,
                        E. L. KELLEY.

    APPENDIX No. 4.

                  RICHMOND, Mo., March 3, 1884.
    E. L. KELLEY. Dear Sir:-- Yours of 1st received> In answer to your first question. First, the capitals are in the first writing: Second, they are the manuscripts used by the printer and bear unmistakeable evidence of the printer's using them, as many of that profession have attested. Oliver Cowdery never, to my knowledge, denied any part of his testimony, on the contrary, as I have done, protested against every fabrication made by designing persons and parties and emphatically testified, as written in the Book of Mormon, until death, which occurred in this place. His wife and child yet living furnish one of the best pictures of a living faith in what their father testified to before death, as written in the Book of Mormon.
                  DAVID WHITMER.

    APPENDIX No. 5.

    We the undersigned citizens of Richmond, Ray county, Missouri, where David Whitmer, Sr., has resided since the year 1838, certify that we have been
    page 396 still under construction

    The matter set forth in Appendix "A, B, and C." and in Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, is by mutual consent.
                               E. L. KELLEY,
                                 CLARK BRADEN.

    Copyright, 1884, by CLARK BRADEN.

    return to page 1

    Return to top of the page

    Return to:  Special Collections Index  |  New Spalding Studies Library

    last revised: Aug. 23, 2006