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Clark Braden (1831- c.1915)
Braden-Kelley Debate
(1st edition: Cincinnatti, 1884)

Part 6 of 7 pages 220-301

  • Title Page   Preface

  • Proposition 1:
  • pp. 003-035   pp. 078-112
    pp. 113-174   pp. 175-219

  • Proposition 2:   pp. 220-301
  • Proposition 3:   pp. 302-381

  • Appendices:   pp. 382-396

  • Rev. Clark Braden



    The original text contains no proper contents page.   --   Tabulated Links (in lieu of a Contents Page)
    Proposition Two Speeches:   1B  1K  2B  2K  3B  3K  4B  4K  5B  5K  6B  6K  7B   7K  8B   8K


    This book will not be fully transcribed until mid-2007.
     
    go back to: page 219



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    SECOND  PROPOSITION.



    Proposition: Is the Church of which I, Clark Braden am a member, identical in faith, organization, ordinances, teaching, worship and practice, with the Church of Christ, as it was left completed and perfected by the apostles of Christ.

    CLARK BRADEN AFFIRMS:

    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- To avoid all wrangeling between the disputants, and to enable the hearer to understand fully the issue, the proposition and its terms need careful explanation.

    The word church has a variety of meanings, arising from the various ways in which it is used...

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    MR. KELLEY'S FIRST SPEECH ON THE SECOND PROPOSITION

    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- I shall first notice in my arguments this evening some of the things which have to be determined, in order for us to progress so as to receive any light whatever in the discussion of this proposition.

    It is said in the question that "the church of which I, Clark Braden, am a member, is, in faith, doctrine, teaching, organization, practice and ordinances, in accordance with the Church of Christ...

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    MR.  BRADEN'S  SECOND  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- We will continue our definition of our views:

    IV. One faith, one system of belief, one system of teaching "the faith once delivered unto the Saints." The Scriptures. We have sufficiently explained this matter...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  SECOND  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- I am glad we are going to have a discussion. I have been here, this is the eleventh evening now, and we have not had a discussion yet...

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    MR.  BRADEN'S  THIRD  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Last night I gave you a detailed account of the faith, organization, teaching, ordinances, worship, and practice of the church of which I am a member. I compared these features with the church of Christ, as organized and completed by the apostles...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  THIRD  SPEECH.

    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Last evening I waited patiently for my opponent to lead out upon his proposition, and show the similarity and agreement in teaching, organization, practice and doctrine of his with the New Testament church; but the longer I waited the less I was able to gather either a comparison of the features of his church with the New Testament, or of an explicit statement of the teachings...

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    MR.  BRADEN'S  FOURTH  SPEECH.

    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- My opponent wants to know why we do not use the term "Church of Jesus Christ," instead of Church of Christ." He may ask the Holy Spirit why, in Romans 16-17, he did not say "The Church of Jesus Christ" ...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  FOURTH  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- It seems that if there is anything to be attached to the manner of one of the disputants in a debate, I should not have anything to say this time. My opponent has finished up the argument -- closed the thing down...

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    These are the utterances of this wonderful apostle of restoration. About four years after this date the "primitive gospel did shine out," by the authority of the angel's message; but Mr. Campbell got mad at it and set about being a restorer himself. Walter Scott had been preaching all through the Western Reserve baptism for the remission of sins, as a member of the Mahoning Association, and that they should receive the gift of the Holy Ghost -- that there was a Millennium day spoken of, and contending that they should have Christianity as it was. Sidney Rigdon was the great orator and leader of this great Mahoning Baptist Association. Scott and Rigdon and Osborn and Alexander Campbell were all contending in 1826 for the reinstating of "primitive Christianity." It was not then revealed, says Mr. Campbell. In 1830 the gospel began to be preached in New York State and over the Western Reserve. A number who labored in the Reform movement investigated and accepted it, and among them Mr. Rigdon. All that they had been praying for, for years, was presented to them. Some accepted and some rejected.

    Among those who rejected, was Mr. A. Campbell; and he told Mr. Scott and Mr. Osborn not to preach. "You shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost," any more; so they did not. Page 75 of Hayden's history. Now they began to blacken Rigdon's character. He had dwelt right here on the Reserve for years. Was preaching constantly. Well-known by every one. Communing with members of the Association on the Sabbath, and considered worthy beyond question. But when he espoused the new faith, that he and Scott and Campbell had been praying for and talking about, and which was too formidable for them to overthrow, he soon became, according to their vocabulary, all that was bad, even accused
    afterwards of having been with Smith for several years in order to get up a new faith; and Smith over in New York State and but just a little upwards of 14 years of age. It is much easier, and a thousand times more reasonable, to believe in miracles and angels than to believe that under the circumstances Rigdon and Smith could have been in communication with each other; and this story never would have been hatched up, had it not been that Smith was illiterate, and they hoped to give some plausible answer for not accepting the truth. For it is well known that, if the faith of the Saints is not true, that Sidney Rigdon himself was one of the worst hum-bugged men by it that ever belonged to the church and lived and died under the delusion.

    Having rejected the Gospel message, Mr. Campbell and associates set about to get up a church of their own; and after trying for nearly fifty years to name it they have not yet positively decided whether it is the Christian Church or the Disciple Church. Campbellite Church seems to more fittingly express it than anything else, as it received Mr. Campbell's impress all through. This institution which we will call the Disciple Chuech is said by Mr. Campbell, the restorer, to have been built on the "Bible and the Bible alone." The meaning of this is, that it was a new thing under the sun and that they rejected all creeds in its establishment, and that it is an exact pattern of the church of God as was established by Jesus and the apostles. This my oponent undertakes to show. When John the Baptist came preaching he said, "He, that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him, the same is he that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." John 1:13.
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    MR.  BRADEN'S  FIFTH  SPEECH.

    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- We will first dispose of the question whether the church was in existence before the day of Pentecost. The gospel has been preached in three ways...

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    page 260 still under construction What power? Acting as high priest, offering sacrifices for the people, --

    "But he that was called of God as was Aaron. So also Christ florifies not himself to be made a high priest, but he that said unto him (unto whom? Unto all Mormon impostors? No, unto Christ). "Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee." And he saith in another place (to Mormon impostors? No, to Christ). "Thou art a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."

    Then Christ is the only one who was called to the high priesthood as Aaron was. Aaron was called by the voice of God to the position of first high priest of the Aaronic priesthood. Christ was called to the Melchizedek priesthood by the voice of God as Aaron was, and Christ alone. He had no predecessor in his office of high priest, and he has no successor. Measure, if you can, the blasphemy of Kelley and other Mormon impostors claiming to be called as Christ was called, as Aaron was called. Placing themselves on an equality with the Son of God. Christ alone was called as Aaron was.

    We are called to be kings and priests unto God as the persons Peter addressed were called, by the obedience of faith. We were made kings and priests unto God when Christ washed us from sin, As kings and priests made by Almighty God and not by Joe Smith or Mormon Impostors, we have divine authority for all, and every act a king and priest unto God can perform. We lay hands on some of our kings and priests who have the qualifications that the law of God requires, not to impart miraculous power, not to impart authority, for they have already as kings and priests unto God received the authority from the Almighty; but to set them apart to a certain work. All are equal in authority, but they are set apart to a certain work. Peter declares in II Peter, 1:3: "God's divine power has given to us" -- the apostle and the Christians of his day "all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him that has called us" -- the apostle and all Christians in his day -- "to glory and virtue." Here the apostle declared that all things that pertain to life and godliness had already been given, and through knowledge, through the truth revealed. If all things had already been given, all that pertains to life and godliness, Mormon revelations are humbugs and impostures. I will stake the issue of the debate on that one passage. Will my opponent read it and tell where his Mormonism comes in?

    IS CAMPBELLISM THE ORIGIN OF MORMONISM?

    The statement is often made as a reproach to the Disciples that Campbellism is the parent of Mormonism. Mormonism is Campbellism gone to seed. We propose to vindicate the Disciples from such a reproach. While it is true that there are things in the Book of Mormon that no one but a Disciple preacher would have written at the time the book appeared; and that there are one or two features in which the Disciples and Mormons agree in differing from the orthodox religious world; it is also as true that it was not what Rigdon took from the Disciples




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    that gave origin to Mormonism. On the contrary, it was the points on which he differed from the Disciples that gave rise to Mormonism. Had Sidney Rigdon accepted all of the teachings of the Disciples, and had he been loyal to them, the Book of Mormon and Mormonism would never have been dreamed of by him. The vital difference between the Disciples and the so-called orthodox world is the dogma that the orthodox religious world make the central idea of their teaching, the dogma that in the conviction and conversion of the sinner, and in the comforting and sanctification of the saint the Holy Spirit exerts a direct and immediate influence, distinct and different from, and in addition to any that he exerts through the truth, that he has revealed in the Scriptures. Some regard this influence as miraculous. Others say that it is not miraculous. The Disciples teach that all direct and immediate influence was miraculous, was not, and could not be a moral influence, and had not one particle of moral influence on the party influenced. Its work was to inspire, to reveal truth, to work miracles, and it can form no part of conviction, conversion and sanctification. They teach that all the moral power that an intelligence, like the Holy Spirit can exert on another intelligence like man's spirit, is resident in ideas, moral influences, presented to the spitit influenced in words or acts. They teach that conviction, conversion and sanctification. are accomplished by moral power alone, resident in truth and acts. They believe the Bible declarations that "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe." II Peter, 1. "Divine power has granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through knowledge." That all "men are begotten by the word of truth," That men are sanctified by God's word as Jesus declares. They reject all direct and immediate influences of the Spirit in conviction, conversion and sanctification, for such influence was all miraculous, and it did not and could not produce one particle of moral influence or change. Because the Bible never ascribes one instance or particle of conversion to such direct influence. Because it invariably ascribes it to the gospel, the word of God, the truth. Such is the great difference between disciples and others.

    Sidney Rigdon brought from the Baptists to the Disciples and agreed with the Disciples in: I. Immersion alone is baptism. II. Penitent believers alone are scriptural subjects of baptism.

    He accepted from the Disciples: I Revelation alone should be the creed of Christians. II. The religious world had departed from the apostolic christianity and should return to it. III. What are called "first principles" by the Disciples. IV. Baptism is unto the remission of sins.

    Not one of these would have even hinted the Book of Mormon or Mormonism. He brought from the Baptists and never agreed with the Disciples: I. Opposition to secret societies. That is in the Book of Mormon. It is full of it. II. The orthodox idea of a
    direct, immediate and miraculous influence of the Spirit in conversion. While a Disciple preacher he would often get so excited in his preaching, as to have what is called "the power," and often claimed that he had visions and revelations in that state. He was always extravagant in his preaching, and had much trouble and difference with the Disciples over this idea, and that a full restoration of aspostolic christianity must restore inspiration, spiritual gifts, and revelations. The orthodox idea of direct and miraculous influence of the Spirit that he retained was simply this claim of Rigdon, the idea that was Rigdon's special hobby, and that was rejected by the Disciples. He brought from the Baptists the orthodox idea of a direct and immediate influence of the Holy Spirit in addition to and distinct from any influence that he exerts through the truth. Like all who believe this notion, he regarded it as the sum and substance of religion. He was consistent and logical, however, and the orthodox world are not. He asserted and truthfully, that this direct and immediate influence ever had been and ever must be miraculous and attended with milraculous power, inspiration and revelation. He came into the Restoration with that hobby and with the intention to engraft it on to the movement, and when he had gotten the Disciples to accept it, he could then get them to accept new revelations, and bring forward his "Golden Bible" that he had fabricated out of Spaulding's "Manuscript Found," and make of the Restoration what Mormonism now is.

    Accordingly he was constantly talking and preaching that a full return to apostolic christianity must include a restoration of the spiritual gifts, miraculous powers, the inspirations and revelations of the apostolic age. He had large numbers of the congregation, for which he preached and indoctrinated them with these ideas, and some had adopted his idea of community of goods and feet washing. These he had prepared for Mormonism, and when he pretended to be converted to Mormonism that he himself had originated, and had used Smith as a tool to publish for him, these persons who had accepted his hobbies went with him, and this accounts for the wonderful rapidity with which converts were made to Mormonism in the churches where he had preached, and had great influence. His teaching in regard to new revelations led them to expect such revelations and they were ready to accept the Book of Mormon as a revelation. Here again the admirable scriptural knowledge and admirable sense of the Campbellite saved the Restoration from shipwreck, as it did in regard to his millennial vagaries and the community of goods. The long and unanswerable series of articles on the Holy Spirit in "Christianity Restored," clearly separated, the miraculous and extraordinary influences of the Spirit, in inspiration, revelations and miracles, which was the direct and immediate influence




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    of the Spirit, from the ordinary influence which was only through the truth. These articles showed that this direct and immediate influence was for a definite purpose -- the completion of revelation -- the word of God, and that the scriptures taught that it ceased with that work. That the only power the Holy Spirit exerts in conviction, conversion and sanctification is by and through the truth he has revealed in the scriptures, and that such influence is the only moral influence He can exert.

    The rejection of this special hobby of Rigdon that he brought into the Restoration from the Baptists and the orthodox religious world, and through which he hoped to get the Disciples to accept his "Golden Bible" and lead them off into what is now Mormonism, drove him from the Restoration. It is often said that "Campbellism is the parent of Mormonism -- that it is Campbellism gone to seed." We have freely stated just what Rigdon took into Mormonism from the Restoration. Because he accepted certain truths we teach no more proves that we are responsible for Mormonism, or that our teachings logically lead to Mormonism, than the fact that Mormonism accepts many of the teachings of the Bible proves that the Bible is responsible for Mormonism, or that the teachings of the Bible logically lead to Mormonism.

    The truth is that our clear, common-sense scriptural teaching that the direct and immediate influence of the Spirit was miraculous and ceased with miracles, and that the only influence that the Spirit exerts now is through the truth he has revealed, the only moral influence he can exert, is utterly fatal to the central idea of Mormonism, and the origin of everything that is peculiar to the system, the direct and miraculous influence of the Spirit, in inspiration and revelations. It was this truth that led the Disciples to reject Rigdon's idea of a restoration of miraculous powers. Had they believed the orthodox idea of a direct and immediate influence, in addition to and distinct from the influence through the truth, and been as logical and consistent in all else, they would have said "such influence is miraculous," and accepted his idea of restoration of miraculous power, Because they rejected the ortho idea of direct and immediate influence, they rejected his hooby of restoration of miraculous powers. No orthodox church could have rejected his hobby if they were consistent with their
    belief of a direct and immediate influence of the Spirit, for such influence must be miraculous, and if really present be attended with miracles.

    Rigdon took from the orthodox world this idea, the key note of orthodoxy, the direct and immediate influence of the Spirit, in addition to and distinct from any that he exerted through the truth. From the Methodists he took the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Having taken these ideas from the religious, orthodox world, Rigdon was consistent and logical and scriptural in asserting that such influence was miraculous, and when really present attended with miraculous powers, inspiration and revelation.

    Mormonism agrees with the orthodox religious world in claiming this direct and immediate influence of the Holy Spirit in addition to, and distinct and different from, any influence that he exerts through the truth. It does not not logically stop with making the claim and refusing to claim the necessary effects of such a cause, miraculous powers, inspiration and revelations. Mormonism claims, and has every truth of scriptural teaching and all common sense to sustain it, that such influence was miraculous, and as necessarily attended by miracles as the effect must attend the cause. Miracles were what distinguished the miraculous influence, which was direct and immediate, from the ordinary influence that was only through the truth. Claiming the cause Mormonism is logical, scriptural and in accordance with common sense in claiming the effect, miracles.

    Mormonism is logical and in accordance with common sense and the Scriptures in claiming all the spiritual gifts that existed in the apostolic church, when it claims their cause -- the direct and immediate influence of the Spirit. Orthodoxy is illogical in claiming the cause, and refusing to claim the necessary effect, that can no more be separated from the cause than the falling of unsuported bodies can be separated from the law of gravitation.

    Sometimes in its claim of special call to preach, miraculous evidence of conversion. that regeneration is a miracle, that men preach as the Spirit gives them utterance and in revival, camp meeting, holiness, and sanctification extravagences, in miraculous providences and answers to prayer, orthodoxy acrually claims miraculous power, and absurdly denounces the Mormon claim to miraculous power and revelations as unscriptural and absurd.

     


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    MR.  KELLEY'S  FIFTH  SPEECH.



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- When my time was called last night I was making an argument upon the authority of the minister, citing John 1:5. "There was a man sent from God whose name was John." Jesus also constantly urged that he did not come to do his own will but the will of him that sent him...

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    after the writing of the constitution. The constitution was good, but its promises are of no account. That a great many repeals have been made, or the provisions ignored, and new regulations and provisions provided, but of course it is the old "church come again." Let us see. The ancient church was built by divine revelation from heaven by men authorized to act as ambassadors: Mr. Campbell said, "If we can preach we can baptize." The ancient church had apostles and prophets: Mr. Campbell had none. If they preach they that could baptize, and if they could baptize, maybe they could get along without apostles or prophets, and they put onlt elders and deacons into their church. But it is the same old church restored. That is as clear as mud.

    The ancient church taught the laying on of hands for the receiving of the Holy Ghost" but Mr. Campbell said that if they could they could baptize; and if they could baptize, maybe they could put all of the apostles out and put in the elders and deacons...

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    MR.  BRADEN'S  SIXTH  SPEECH.



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Mormonism takes from orthodoxy, this key note of orthodoxy, this direct and immediate influence of the spirit, in addition to and distinct from any that he exerts through the truth. Having claimed the cause, it claims the necessary effects, inspiration and revelation. By means of new revelations. Mormonism can introduce any new dogma...

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    This dogma of a direct, immediate and miraculous influence of the spirit, is the sole and only parent of Mormonism, and every new and peculiar feature in it. It is an insult to common sense, and a deliberate falsehood, for the orthodox religious world to vociferate that "Campbellism is the parent of Mormonism." The clear, scriptural teaching of what they call Campbellism," that all direct and immediate influence of the spirit was miraculous and ceased with miracles, and that the spirit now influences men only through the truth he revealed is
    utterly destructive of Mormonism, and drove Rigdon out of the Restoration. As well say that Christianity was the parent of papacy. Orthodoxy is the parent of Mormonism; of all that is peculiar to it. The orthodox notion, that is the key note of orthodoxy -- the direct and immediate influence of the spirit, the miraculous influence of the spirit, is the sole and only parent of Mormonism. Mormon revelations, including the revelations in favor of polygamy, revelations in favor of all other Mormon vagaries are simply that key note of orthodoxy gone to seed.

    This central idea, this key-note of orthodoxy, is the Trojan horse by means of which those lying Greeks, Mormon revelations and vagaries were introduced into the Scriptural ideas, that Mormonism in common with what is called "Campbellism" accepted from the Bible, and which, like Aeneas, the Disciples rejected as falsehoods of the enemy. It is by means of this Trojan horse, fabricated by orthodoxy, that the pure teachings of the Bible, that what is called "Campbellism" taught: and that Mormonism accepted at first have been destroyed. Had Rigdon, Smith and the leaders of Mormonism accepted the clear Scriptural teaching of the Disciples, that all direct, immediate and miraculous influence of the Spirit ceased when it had accomplished its work in completing the work of God, Mormonism would have never cursed the world...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  SIXTH  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- It seems that my opponent got so worked up on last evening that he has not descended from that high horse of Ahasueras. The trouble with him is, he concludes there is more argument in the use of mean terms and unbecoming expressions than in a true and manly way of debate.

    How ridiculous for a man to come before an audience with the name and reputation of a clergyman, debator and logician, and to then have him employ the means of slander, vituperation, and expressions without meaning to meet his opponent. Here on his own question he has left entirely the issue and gone back to his pet theory of howling "Joe Smith," "Impostor," "Mormon Deity," "great fraud," " blacklegs," "rascals," "villians," "scoundrels," etc.
    Now, ladies and gentlemen, he is quite welcome to all the arguments there is in those terms, so far as I am concerned. I could, had I the the disposition, answer him very effectually by returning the fire with like polite and refined language; but I will say here that I shall not so lower my standing as a minister, nor the great cause of Christ's truth which I represent, by descending to any such place. (Applause.)

    The first points discussed by my opponent I shall take up and answer in their place. But all of that relating to Sidney Rigdon and what Braden calls Mormonism, I shall pay no attention to, it being in no sense connected with the question under discussion.

    It is the faith, doctrines, practices and organization of Braden's, or the Campbellite church, that is under discussion now, and I shall not be drawn away from the




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    MR.  BRADEN'S  SEVENTH  SPEECH.



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- My opponent spent much time last night jabbering about Mr. Campbell's authority to organize churches after the apostolic pattern, baptize and preach. We showed him that every child of God is a king, a priest made a royal priest by God himself. Such persons have a divine commission to preach, baptize, and do any and all acts required in the Kingdom of God...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  SEVENTH  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- My opponent seems much worried over my exposition of the language, "Yet show I unto you a more excellent way." He could take up a plain and positive passage like that of Jesus in John 3:5, and try to translate for you...

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    MR.  BRADEN'S  EIGHTH  SPEECH.


    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Does the constitution of the Church of Christ ordain that miraculous powers shall cease out of the church? We announced in our opening speech on the first proposition that this question is the central idea of this discussion, this is the vital issue of the debate. If my opponent can show that miraculous powers were to remain in the church, he has a basis for his claim for the inspiration of Smith, and that the Book of Mormon is a revelation and that his organization can possess these miraculous powers. This would only, however, raise the real issue. Was Smith inspired? Was the Book of Mormon a revelation? Does his organization possess these powers? Proving that a thing is possible does not prove that it really exists...

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    MR.  KELLEY'S  CLOSING  SPEECH.



    GENTLEMEN MODERATORS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: -- Let me call your attention at once to the misrepresentation of my reference to the calling of Paul and Barnabas...

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    Why should he persist, then, in saying they are the "restored" chuch, and that their's is the one "restored" gospel which Paul preached?

    14. The church of which Braden is a member claims there is no Holy Spirit given to the believer in Christ, except through the medium of the word, the letter of the law; Whereas, The practice in the early church was to administer the Spirit as shed forth by Jesus Christ, not through the medium of the word, but sent down from heaven on the converts after they had believed and obeyed the truth. This is exavtly the reverse of the faith and practice of Braden's church.
    15. Braden's church professes to be built upon the Bible, and the Bible alone. I have shown you that God did not build his church on this but the rock of present revelation, which his church denies to its adherents, and therefore his church is not built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus being the chief corner stone. It takes present revelation and a present enjoyment of the promise of the Holy Ghost to build in this way and it is not enough to simply believe apostles and prophets and Jesus once exister in the church.

    (Time called.)







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